American History

[Evaloves4]

On 8/2/2022 at 7:12 AM, RitualClarity said:

Thoughts

W.E.B Du Bois, Black Reconstruction in America (1935) as a counterpoint to Eric Foner, Reconstruction: America's Unfinished Revolution 1863-1877 (2016?)

 

Intended as a read one after another. An example of using counterpoints in history books to try to get the "big picture"

 

Also, if there are better books to combine. Please, feel free to contribute. I am not a big Civil War / Revolutionary War history buff.

 

@Slormhttps://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/745364.Almost_a_Miracle

Looks like a good book for reading for those interested in Revolutionary War.

 

 

> I know very little about American civil war (mostly from the movies) but I know I like this guy (A.L.)

> If I hate anything beside the things I already hate, then racism, nationalism and slavery are on the top of my most hatred things humans do.

[steelpanther24]

On 8/2/2022 at 1:12 AM, RitualClarity said:

Thoughts

W.E.B Du Bois, Black Reconstruction in America (1935) as a counterpoint to Eric Foner, Reconstruction: America's Unfinished Revolution 1863-1877 (2016?)

 

Intended as a read one after another. An example of using counterpoints in history books to try to get the "big picture"

 

I have also gotten recommendations to read Du Bois as well, though I never got around to it.  I should pick it up and read it now that I am at the end of my working career.

[steelpanther24]

6 hours ago, Evaloves4 said:

 

> I know very little about American civil war (mostly from the movies) but I know I like this guy (A.L.)

> If I hate anything beside the things I already hate, then racism, nationalism and slavery are on the top of my most hatred things humans do.

 

 

Be mindful of one of his famous sayings "You can't trust everything you read on the Internet" - A. Lincoln, US Pres. and Vampire Hunter

 

 

Source:

[Evaloves4]

1 hour ago, steelpanther24 said:

 

 

Be mindful of one of his famous sayings "You can't trust everything you read on the Internet" - A. Lincoln, US Pres. and Vampire Hunter

 

 

Source:

> We watched that movie and my Prince liked it very much. The whole idea about Southerns as vampires was funny. But, jokes aside as my friend Trilog used to say: We learned in the E.S. and H.S. that A.L. was a good man and that he set slaves free. We do not have racism in our country since we do not have blacks (only as a students and tourists), but nationalism and religious affiliation (True Croat or Italian must be Roman Catholic) is equally strong as racism is in US and some other countries. (My apologizes for detouring a little bit off the subject).

> The three of us have no problem with nationality and skin color. My Prince is l,living proof of that since chocolate tall skinny girly are his fetish and Krypton. If he would see the girl like this, he will have instant erection. (I am bit of wet now too )

 

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by Evaloves4

[Psalam]

4 minutes ago, Evaloves4 said:

he set slaves free

While Abraham Lincoln was an extraordinary man, this trope about him must end. The slaves in the USA were freed by the various members (Northern) states. The slaves living in the South were nominally freed by "The Emancipation Proclamation" but they were only freed by the series of Constitutional Amendments that came during Reconstruction. What the Emancipation Proclamation said was that any slave that was in a state that was part of the Confederacy could consider themselves free. That was about as useful as me signing a document saying that any person of Ukrainian ancestry living in territory under the jurisdiction of the Russian Federation can move to Kiev and President Putin will pay their train fare. It's a pleasant thought but the real work is entirely up to the people who are the "recipients" of this largesse.

[Evaloves4]

23 minutes ago, Psalam said:

While Abraham Lincoln was an extraordinary man, this trope about him must end. The slaves in the USA were freed by the various members (Northern) states. The slaves living in the South were nominally freed by "The Emancipation Proclamation" but they were only freed by the series of Constitutional Amendments that came during Reconstruction. What the Emancipation Proclamation said was that any slave that was in a state that was part of the Confederacy could consider themselves free. That was about as useful as me signing a document saying that any person of Ukrainian ancestry living in territory under the jurisdiction of the Russian Federation can move to Kiev and President Putin will pay their train fare. It's a pleasant thought but the real work is entirely up to the people who are the "recipients" of this largesse.

> But the decree about ending the slavery started from him and by him. Right? if that didn't happen, the history of the world is handicapped and we were taught the half trues or half lies?! No wonder why I was never interested in history. What is the truth for one side, it is a lie for the other side.

[Psalam]

4 minutes ago, Evaloves4 said:

> But the decree about ending the slavery started from him and by him. Right? if that didn't happen, the history of the world is handicapped and we were taught the half trues or half lies?! No wonder why I was never interested in history. What is the truth for one side, it is a lie for the other side.

He (Abraham Lincoln) did indeed issue the Emancipation Proclamation. Like so many things done by politicians (yes, even in the 19th century) it sounds good but effectively did nothing. It did not "give" a single slave their freedom although it may have encouraged some to "take" it (by running away). In a legal sense, all slaves were freed in the USA after Lincoln's death by the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments to the Constitution (particularly the 13th) which were part of Reconstruction. The myth of Lincoln as the great Emancipator was due to Carl Sandburg, an American poet and a great admirer of Lincoln. His biography of Lincoln changed the way that people looked at him.

[Evaloves4]

5 minutes ago, Psalam said:

He (Abraham Lincoln) did indeed issue the Emancipation Proclamation. Like so many things done by politicians (yes, even in the 19th century) it sounds good but effectively did nothing. It did not "give" a single slave their freedom although it may have encouraged some to "take" it (by running away). In a legal sense, all slaves were freed in the USA after Lincoln's death by the 13th, 14th and 15th Amendments to the Constitution (particularly the 13th) which were part of Reconstruction. The myth of Lincoln as the great Emancipator was due to Carl Sandburg, an American poet and a great admirer of Lincoln. His biography of Lincoln changed the way that people looked at him.

> Soooo, again everything is a big

???

> Well, fuck it. I don't care about fucking history. I'd rather die in my ignorance that believe in lie.

 

[Psalam]

6 minutes ago, Evaloves4 said:

> Soooo, again everything is a big

???

> Well, fuck it. I don't care about fucking history. I'd rather die in my ignorance that believe in lie.

 

I'm not a big fan of popular culture, but this exchange from a movie (Star Wars: Episode 6) is sound advice:

 

Luke Skywalker: A certain point of view?

Obi-Wan Kenobi: Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

[Slorm]

34 minutes ago, Psalam said:

Obi-Wan Kenobi: Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view.

 

Yes indeed and it begs a whole slew of ethical (and semantic) questions.

 

As a basic rule of thumb I tend to approach events in three steps and try to discern whether each were roughly benign, malign or neutral based on:

 

1/ Intent

2/ The action taken

3/ Outcome (split into short and long term)

 

This leads to some interesting conundrums as some actions start of with thoroughly malignant intent and short term malignant outcome, but in the longer term can prove beneficial. Likewise I'm sure are all familiar with the old homily of "The road to Hell being paved with good intent", both can become quite apparent in social legislation and events.

 

There are a few absolute truths, as in -273C being Absolute Zero within the known Universe, but most truth is relative to the observer or the Society which forms their personal environment. This is why it is important to always question our own views and assumptions, are they based on reason (however convoluted) or are they simply mindless blind beliefs so would not even qualify as a relative truth

[Grey Cloud]

4 hours ago, steelpanther24 said:

A. Lincoln, US Pres. and Vampire Hunter

Abraham Lincoln Nebraska to give him his full name. ?

[Grey Cloud]

52 minutes ago, Slorm said:

There are a few absolute truths, as in -273C being Absolute Zero within the known Universe,

That is subject to how good current understanding of umpteen different contributory factors is.

 

54 minutes ago, Slorm said:

"The road to Hell being paved with good intent"

That's because humans don't know Truth but only truth.

 

57 minutes ago, Slorm said:

are they based on reason

That wont get you Truth. Reason gets you on the road but it wont take you all the way. See Athena and Hermes in various Greek hero myths and Homer.

"One eye for study and one eye for meditation" to quote/paraphrase the Buddha.

[Grey Cloud]

As to Lincoln "freeing the slaves", these type of phrases are from popular culture and presented as a type of shorthand for statements such as e.g. "he did more than anyone to bring about emancipation" or "he was the first major figure to advocate emancipation" or whatever.

 

AWI

I do wish they would put the scale on maps. I recently watched a series on the Franco-Prussian* War which neglected map scales.

* Named after the famous Irish general - Frank O'Prussia.

 

They probably do an ACW one too. They do and it was about three thumbnails away.

 

 

Edited August 4, 2022 by Grey Cloud

[Slorm]

13 hours ago, Grey Cloud said:

That wont get you Truth. Reason gets you on the road but it wont take you all the way. See Athena and Hermes in various Greek hero myths and Homer.

"One eye for study and one eye for meditation" to quote/paraphrase the Buddha.

 

I agree that it doesn't get you Truth. I'm thinking more along the line here as to whether there is a methodology or something was just done/decided on a whim or reaction

[Grey Cloud]

 

 

[DrunkenCow]

Yeah, looks and sounds like an hour and a half of bad rationalizations to support the current state of US governance where  "supposedly free" states that were never in the CSA are now using blatantly racist laws in the past to justify their current legislation they wrote when SCOTUS overturned their use of Jim Crow era laws recently.