American History

[RitualClarity]

On 7/9/2022 at 10:21 AM, Slorm said:

I was wondering if anyone could recommend some good books on American history; I'm particularly interested in the events, protagonists and military actions (both strategy and battle tactics) for the War of Independence and also the American Civil War.

 

I'm looking for an impartial or neutral record (as far as possible) rather than an authors partisan views of either side.

 

I would assume that I would be looking for academic books, so if they have a good writing style that engages the reader rather than boring them, then that would definitely be an added bonus.

 

Many thanks

I'd try looking / researching events etc. from sources other than US based authors. (also if possible US allies) This might give some alternate views of history that you might be interested in. Same thing I do with news events that I am interested in.  History writers like News reporters/writers have agendas and bias that they readily let filter into their works.

 

[Slorm]

10 hours ago, TheLadysGhost said:

@Slorm, I can ask my husband about books written by natives, which cast a very different perpective.

 

 

Many thanks, I'd appreciate that

[TheLadysGhost]

15 minutes ago, Slorm said:

Many thanks, I'd appreciate that

Not a book, but a video produced by Cherokee of dark US history. For those think they know, note that the only sickness or disease mentioned is one brought from Europe, as were many others, including typhoid. And again, blah blah blah goes the "thinker"...

 

 

[Slorm]

15 minutes ago, TheLadysGhost said:

Not a book, but a video produced by Cherokee of dark US history. For those think they know, note that the only sickness or disease mentioned is one brought from Europe, as were many others, including typhoid. And again, blah blah blah goes the "thinker"...

 

 

 

Many thanks. I have heard of the Trail of Tears from reading Forrest Carter some years ago. I think it was "The Education of Little Tree" but I may be confusing it with another as I read it around 20 years ago.

 

Edit: I think I'm confusing it with Micheners novel Centennial

Edited July 19, 2022 by Slorm

[RitualClarity]

On 7/19/2022 at 12:49 PM, Grey Cloud said:

So because a 25 min video does not mention diseases other than those brought by the Europeans this, by what passes for your logic, proves that there were no other diseases on the North American continent?
 

American Indians, over thousands of years have adapted to the illnesses present in the US at that time. They built up immunity over those thousands of years. Yes, they had illnesses. yes, likely people still died from it. However, those would have been the weakest of the community for the most part. Not unlike today with Flu or similar illnesses. Also, had established processes/procedures for those severe illnesses that were dangerous for the community in general.

 

A modern example of not having a natural immunity is Covid 19.  Many, including normally very healthy peoples died from this disease due to not having a natural immunity. Hence, the reason for the vaccines to help give us that immunity.  Early Europeans actively and knowingly spread deadly diseases through the native peoples. Today that would crimes against humanity. These were the diseases that killed tens of thousands (or more) peoples that normally would have survived those diseases that their people's previously would have encountered.

 

American Indians were exceptionally adapted to their environments. They knew how to obtain the foods and supplies they needed.  They had extensive trade routes throughout the US. Many of those paths later were used for inward expansion of the European settlers.  They had developed many social rules for discourse and yes, even war between various factions.  Was it perfect? No.  However, it was well established and worked well for them.  Not unlike the various rules and laws established in modern society for different factions( governments) today.

 

The wholesale premeditated destruction and marginalization of entire communities of native American Indians over hundreds of years has greatly contributed to the many troubles they have in their communities now.

Edited July 27, 2022 by RitualClarity

[Grey Cloud]

39 minutes ago, RitualClarity said:

American Indians, over thousands of years have adapted to the illnesses present in the US at that time. They built up immunity over those thousands of years.

Apart from that being true of anybody anywhere it does not alter the fact that the 'logic' expressed by TheLadysGhost was nonsense.

 

The rest of your post is just generic pap which is largely applicable to all indigenous peoples.

 

50 minutes ago, RitualClarity said:

The wholesale per-mediated destruction

What the hell is 'per-mediated destruction'?

 

I have no problem with Native Americans and am an admirer of many aspects of their various societies and cultures. What gets my goat is people who have no great knowledge of anything historical trotting out some politically correct narrative or one they think is 'controversial'.

 

The thing about history (the discipline) which most people miss is that it is dynamic. Theories about every period in history and every historical event undergo change over time. New evidence is unearthed, new ideas are formed and new hypotheses are are posited and subjected to examination and critique. There is no 'official narrative' which is never allowed to change.

To take WW1 as an example - it took place only a century ago and is one of the most well-documented events in, well, history.  Apart from the written material there are e.g. films and photos and archaeological evidence. Nevertheless, there have been numerous theories about the conflict and most of the major subsets of it. 'war by accident' and 'war by timetable' being two of the more famous ones.

All the theories were influenced by the time and place of the theorists. "It is known Jon Snow". And all that is why moronic statements like this:

"The entire history of mankind is based on less than 10% truth... good luck." tend to make my blood boil.

 

Here's something to think about. Slorm asked for specific info about two pivotal events in the history of the USA. To say the response that was received was underwhelming would be to do it a kindness. If Slorm had asked about two comic book franchises or TV shows, do you think the response from the great patriotic, flag-waving American public would have been greater or less than that for the history of their country?

?

[DrunkenCow]

On 7/9/2022 at 11:21 AM, Slorm said:

I'm looking for an impartial or neutral record (as far as possible) rather than an authors partisan views of either side.

 

Good luck with that, everyone is biased.  BTW - The American Civil War started in 1854 when Republicans started killing Democrats in Kansas and vice versa; not when the Democrats decided to make their own country with hookers, blackjack, and slaves.

 

Here is a launching point:  https://guides.loc.gov/chronicling-america-bleeding-kansas

Here is a good biography and a free download:  https://www.gutenberg.org/ebooks/62799

 

[Evaloves4]

> @Slorm, I admire your desire to study (American) history. I was never thrilled with any kind of history, even the history of my own people. (Shame on me?) Why am I saying this? I want to commend your desire to advance in the knowledge and expanding it.   I hope you'll find what are you looking for.

Edited July 22, 2022 by Evaloves4

[mercplatypus]

On 7/9/2022 at 8:21 AM, Slorm said:

I was wondering if anyone could recommend some good books on American history; I'm particularly interested in the events, protagonists and military actions (both strategy and battle tactics) for the War of Independence and also the American Civil War.

 

I'm looking for an impartial or neutral record (as far as possible) rather than an authors partisan views of either side.

 

I would assume that I would be looking for academic books, so if they have a good writing style that engages the reader rather than boring them, then that would definitely be an added bonus.

 

Many thanks

 

As you can see, getting an unbiased or neutral accounting of American history is not a very simple or easy task.  I have enjoyed the works of Victor Davis Hanson, but he does tend to lean center right politically speaking and it does show in his writings.  I fear the best you will do is to grab a few books and fact check them with known historical record.  Anything involving the Native Americans is bound to be particularly contentious as there is a huge incentive to try to spin things one way or the other.

[Slorm]

6 hours ago, Evaloves4 said:

> @Slorm, I admire your desire to study (American) history. I was never thrilled with any kind of history, even the history of my own people. (Shame on me?) Why am I saying this? I want to commend your desire to advance in the knowledge and expanding it.   I hope you'll find what are you looking for.

 

Thank you

 

I find history fascinating as it's the road from the past to the future. I've read a fair bit of UK history (I have a particular interest in the Tudor Period) as well as the classical Greek and Roman periods. I then realised my knowledge of World history was poor so want to look more at the US, then Europe generally and the Italian Renaissance period as well. That'll keep me busy for a while.

 

There are two issues that arise, one is bias (the victor writes the history, then later the vanquished if they're lucky), so one does need to read both sides and where possible establish that the events actually took place as a matter of record and then interpolate the data as far as possible.

 

The other issue is more depressing. If you read diarists like Samuel Pepys (1633 - 1703) you quickly realise that things have changed very little since the seventeenth century. We have the same gripes today about unreliable/dodgy builders and corrupt politicians/administrators as then. History has much to teach us and although the technology around us has evolved dramatically, humanity sadly changes much more slowly while it repeats the same mistakes.

[RitualClarity]

12 hours ago, Slorm said:

 

Thank you

 

I find history fascinating as it's the road from the past to the future. I've read a fair bit of UK history (I have a particular interest in the Tudor Period) as well as the classical Greek and Roman periods. I then realized my knowledge of World history was poor so want to look more at the US, then Europe generally and the Italian Renaissance period as well. That'll keep me busy for a while.

 

There are two issues that arise, one is bias (the victor writes the history, then later the vanquished if they're lucky), so one does need to read both sides and where possible establish that the events actually took place as a matter of record and then interpolate the data as far as possible.

 

The other issue is more depressing. If you read diarists like Samuel Pepys (1633 - 1703) you quickly realize that things have changed very little since the seventeenth century. We have the same gripes today about unreliable/dodgy builders and corrupt politicians/administrators as then. History has much to teach us and although the technology around us has evolved dramatically, humanity sadly changes much more slowly while it repeats the same mistakes.

You are reading more history than I did, even when I was in school!   It is good to have a hobby. Many great minds have history as one of their main hobbies. Or so I have been told (often by those people that have history as their main hobby. LOL) In either case, I am greatly impressed with someone with a firm grasp on history.

 

The first issue that you have seen is the bias. There are some authors that do try their best to be as bias free as possible, but they are a product of their society so it is extremely difficult for a person to be completely bias.  For that I would just try to find alternate sources like I mentioned before. There are many sources that will give feedback on particular author's works and views on history. You can perhaps research that to see if that is an angle you want to explore.  In the end all you can do is try your best to be as informed on a time period and location as possible. 

 

If you have graduated a college perhaps you can go back and audit history courses. Many times college alumni can do this. Sometimes it is with a cost but usually a small one.

 

The second issue is depressing, I agree on that statement. As the saying goes "Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it" - Edmund Burke -  (I am not sure about his personal history and works beyond his quote that works quite well for the second issue)  People continue to do what they do over and over, generation after generation. Thanks @Slorm now I am depressed.   (Just kidding!)

 

Perhaps the following will help you with your journey.

What is history? by Edward Hallet Carr.

Check it out here

https://archive.org/stream/WhatIsHistory-E.H.Carr/historycarr_djvu.txt

It is a discussion about history and historians and their bias etc.

 

Edited July 23, 2022 by RitualClarity

[woodsman30]

On 7/9/2022 at 11:21 AM, Slorm said:

I'm looking for an impartial or neutral record

Difficult to find opinions and bias is the rule of thumb... instead of researching those topics research events and histories prior to those event. Understanding what happened in history from 1700 forward will help to weed out falsehoods. The events that made those wars happen is more interesting than the wars themselves. In the States there are resources like book depositories these libraries are vast and have old news clipping ect on microfiche and even older tomes....also of note librarians are full of knowledge and they have dedicated their lives to the tomes they rule over ask them for research help. From a book nerds opinion. ?  

[Slorm]

@RitualClarity @woodsman30

 

Thank you both for your interesting comments.

 

Bias is a huge problem not only in the recorder of the events at the time but also by the later reader of their works. I think one of the dangerous things which we can all have, is a tendency to look at the past through modern eyes  with modern opinions during the gathering of data on events, protagonists etc.

 

It seems to be that one needs to look at the events using the ethics and morals that applied at that time; in short, what was acceptable then would not necessarily be acceptable now, however to understand the outlook at the time one must set aside one's modern outlook and judgment. This also includes sentimental views of the past, as most of it (even in my lifetime) was not some Disney "Good Old Days" fantasy.

 

In sense I think the data needs a number of sweeps to evaluate the actual events that took place, the ostensible causes that led to that events and the driving moral/ethical views pertaining at the time of the protagonists in those events.

[TheLadysGhost]

2 hours ago, Slorm said:

Bias is a huge problem not only in the recorder of the events at the time but also by the later reader of their works.

Wisdom! Often it is best (if time permits) to research from multiple viewpoints, and determine what you think is a midway, or mostly likely scenario. It is said that history is written by the victor, but sometimes, how those who lost saw things can also be found... just perhaps a bit harder to find.

[Grey Cloud]

20 hours ago, Slorm said:

It seems to be that one needs to look at the events using the ethics and morals that applied at that time

“The past is a foreign country; they do things differently there.”

L.P. Hartley.

 

 

 

-----

History is one of the humanities - it is not a science. History is subjective and interpretative. Sometimes the evidence is not there so the gaps have to be filled by guesswork. Even science is often subjective and interpretative. Very seldom is the 'bias' deliberate but the word 'bias' is usually used pejoratively.

 

Historians look at every available source they can when when researching a subject. Their findings/conclusions are then looked at by other historians. This is the essence of peer review. Peer review is not perfect and it is well known in academic circles that it has it's faults (especially with regard to science) but it is still a long way in front of some numpty on Twitter.

 

Reading one book or more than one newspaper article or watching more than one documentary on any subject is basic common sense to me. That is one of the reasons why I provided the titles of books from three different authors - two British and one American in this case - one 'popular' (Keegan), two academic; one tactics specialist (Griffith) and one strategy specialist (Murray).

It is oft times quite instructive to read books on the same subject but from widely different times.

 

As for American history, whether the events of the past or the academic discipline, it is no different than that of any other country. The pap for the masses from TV and Hollywood which seems to form the diet of most Americans is, was and probably ever will be less than great but American academic writing is, by and large, as good as the rest of the world.

Edited July 24, 2022 by Grey Cloud

[DoctaSax]

Thread cleaned of most bickering and grandstanding.

Keep it on topic.

[Grey Cloud]

On 7/22/2022 at 11:59 PM, RitualClarity said:

https://archive.org/stream/WhatIsHistory-E.H.Carr/historycarr_djvu.txt

It is a discussion about history and historians and their bias etc.

And was one of the mandatory books when I was at uni and a good example of what I was saying about historians knowing about the problems involved in trying to remain objective etc. The book was published in 1961.

 

On 7/22/2022 at 11:59 PM, RitualClarity said:

Perhaps the following will help you with your journey.

?? ?

Slorm is British so being interested in something and going about learning more of the subject does not equate to undergoing life-threatening surgery.

'Journey'.

???

[DoctaSax]

3 hours ago, TheLadysGhost said:

Perhaps you missed one?

 

Fixed, didn't read it fully.

[Guest]

 

This is an interesting video on firearms from a collector and the history behind most of them. I personally like videos like these because this is avoiding mainstream and going directly to people who actually have a passion for history.  Remember, good or bad, history is history. I'm personally a huge fan of the history of the American Southwest where I'm from. History is mostly talked about the northern and southern states when history and politics are brought up.

[RitualClarity]

On 7/23/2022 at 7:26 AM, Slorm said:

@RitualClarity @woodsman30

 

Thank you both for your interesting comments.

 

Bias is a huge problem not only in the recorder of the events at the time but also by the later reader of their works. I think one of the dangerous things which we can all have, is a tendency to look at the past through modern eyes  with modern opinions during the gathering of data on events, protagonists etc.

 

It seems to be that one needs to look at the events using the ethics and morals that applied at that time; in short, what was acceptable then would not necessarily be acceptable now, however to understand the outlook at the time one must set aside one's modern outlook and judgment. This also includes sentimental views of the past, as most of it (even in my lifetime) was not some Disney "Good Old Days" fantasy.

 

In sense I think the data needs a number of sweeps to evaluate the actual events that took place, the ostensible causes that led to that events and the driving moral/ethical views pertaining at the time of the protagonists in those events.

Yes, they do include sentimental views of the past. Even within ones own lifetime, this happens often. Many times the bad gets swept under the rug or minimized. Sometimes the bad gets blown out of proportion of what reality was. Historians do have their work cut out for them.

[beefers]

start with anything by Nome Chomsky or Chris Hedges.

[steelpanther24]

16 hours ago, beefers said:

start with anything by Nome Chomsky or Chris Hedges.

Noam Chomsky the "the father of modern linguistics"?  He hasn't written on the Revolutionary war or Civil War.   Most of his "historical" work is heavily into politics and centered on events in his lifetime (cold war, Vietnam, Iraq war, etc.)

 

Chris Hedges is another one that hasn't written on either as well. 

[Slorm]

26 minutes ago, steelpanther24 said:

Noam Chomsky the "the father of modern linguistics"?  He hasn't written on the Revolutionary war or Civil War.   Most of his "historical" work is heavily into politics and centered on events in his lifetime (cold war, Vietnam, Iraq war, etc.)

 

Chris Hedges is another one that hasn't written on either as well. 

 

I'm currently around a quarter way through John Ferling's "Almost a Miracle: The American Victory in the War of Independence" which I've been impressed with. It seems to be a reasonably balanced account but what surprised me was how easily readable it is stylistically, It's more like a narrative than a dry scholastic piece by a History Professor (West Georgia). The characters in particular (Washington, Lee, Gage et al) really feel alive and he manages to flesh them out without over much description as well.

 

A thoroughly good read so far

[Grey Cloud]

On 7/31/2022 at 9:42 PM, beefers said:

start with anything by Nome Chomsky or Chris Hedges.

1. It's Noam not Nome.

2. Neither Chomsky or Hedges are historians. Hedges isn't even a scholar.

3. Chomsky writes from an anarcho-syndicalist perspective and Hedges is a journalist and Presbyterian minister so no bias from either of them, obviously.

4. Neither Chomsky or Hedges have written a book on the AWI or the ACW.

 

Apart from that a very apposite and insightful post, I thought.

Edited August 1, 2022 by Grey Cloud

[RitualClarity]

Thoughts

W.E.B Du Bois, Black Reconstruction in America (1935) as a counterpoint to Eric Foner, Reconstruction: America's Unfinished Revolution 1863-1877 (2016?)

 

Intended as a read one after another. An example of using counterpoints in history books to try to get the "big picture"

 

Also, if there are better books to combine. Please, feel free to contribute. I am not a big Civil War / Revolutionary War history buff.

 

@Slormhttps://www.goodreads.com/en/book/show/745364.Almost_a_Miracle

Looks like a good book for reading for those interested in Revolutionary War.